Why You Should Write on Medium with One of Medium's Top Writers - Ep. 11: Sinem Günel

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3 BIG TAKEAWAYS

1. Treat your writing like a business
2. Give readers what they want
3. Sell your next sentence

EPISODE INFO:
Last time on the interview series I talked to Christopher Golden, award winning author of books and comics.

Sinem is a Top Medium Writer in more than 15 categories, making more than $5,000 a month solely through her writing on Medium. She reaches hundreds of thousands of readers every month. She also runs an 8,000 person Facebook group. As well as a Medium Writing Academy where she teaches writers how to have success on the platform.

Note: I sometimes use affiliate links. At no additional cost to you, I may receive compensation for promoting this content. I ONLY promote products and services I have direct experience with. In this instance, I am a Medium user and highly recommend the platform

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Transcript

WLIS 111 - Sinem Günel 
 

[00:00:00] David Gwyn: All right. Welcome to this new interview today. I'll be talking to Sinem Günel Sinem is a top medium writer in more than 15 categories. Making more than $5,000 a month. Solely through her writing on medium. She reaches hundreds of thousands of readers every month. She also runs a medium writing academy where she teaches writers, how to have success on the platform. 

We're going to talk about writing about medium as a source of income, how to get started. If you're brand new and more. If you're a writer, I recommend subscribing to this podcast. Every week I post a new video with writing tips or interviews with authors and industry experts like. this one to help you go from aspiring writer to published author. 

So be sure to subscribe to the podcast. So you get notified when a new episode drops and if you want all the best content Writerly lifestyle puts out every week. Sign up for our newsletter. It's linked in the show. And the opening part of this interview, Sinem shares her success story on medium, regardless of what kind of writing you're doing, whether it's content copywriting, novel, short story, or non-fiction be sure to take note of what she says about how she treats her writing career. 

I mean, this is a person who writes for a living, so that doesn't make you sit up and take notice. I'm not sure what will listen to how she approaches her writing, because it's what professional writers of all kinds of.  

 So Sinem welcome. I'm really excited to talk to you as we kind of chatted before we got on here. I'm so impressed with what you're doing and, I want to be just like you and I grow up. So I won't take up too much of your time cause I know you're busy and you've got a lot going on, but can you give us a quick background on how you got started writing? 

[00:01:39] Sinem Günel: Well, thanks. First of all, for having me for the lovely introduction. My beginning of, my writing journey was actually kind of an accident. I have started to write a small business around hosting workshops and trainings particularly for students when I was a student myself. So when I was at university when we were hosting workshops about. 

Personal development related topics. So it was me and four friends, and we were kind of angry on the educational system and we're like, okay, there's so much we didn't learn. And we just started to host workshops were literally reading books, educating ourselves. And then on weekends we would host those workshops for free. 

And we have like, I don't know, 10, 15 people. And we just had a full day. Kind of as learning and improving meeting cool people who were also interested in improving themselves. And after doing that for a few months my partner actually discovered medium through a YouTube video and she was like, Hey, check this out. 

And my partner is a very curious person in general, so yeah. Still to this day, always sending me links and saying, Hey, check this out. And I was kind of floating mad about that because I was trying to focus on very few things. And at the time. Doing a term internship. I was trying to finish my studies. I had this side business with work shops and then he was constantly sending me those random platforms where you could produce online courses and this and that. 

But somehow that one link sparked my curiosity and I really checked it out and it was one of the very few and it was medium. And all I knew is that you can basically. Sign up, write and publish your articles there and that you can make money there. And I just did that. So I remember we've been at our co-working space when he sent me the link actually, and, on my way home. 

I was checking it out on my phone and I think like an hour later or so I had published my first article based on kind of slides that I had prepared for my workshop. Oh, wow. So very random. I was never the person to dream about the writing career or about writing books or anything like that. I know that's, that's a goal for a lot of people. 

I ended up writing a book, but yeah, very random. Actually I just, in the big, like my first. Articles were summaries of the workshops I hosted off the presentation side gave and they were far from good writing. But yeah, I overtime, I just figured out it's, it's something I really loved doing and I figured out how to make it work for me. 

[00:04:26] David Gwyn: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I think in, in following you and listening to your story and, and reading a bunch of your articles, one of the things that I think is so interesting about the way you, and I think it's because you don't have this like romantic view of writing that you have, you see it more like a business, right? 

Like you see it as like something you sit down and do every day, like. a job I feel like that's such an important thing for people to hear about that. Like, if you want to make writing your career, then you need to treat it like a career. And I think that helps you had to kind of like a business entrepreneur background. 

[00:04:57] Sinem Günel: Yeah. totally, like I was now trying to figure out how to turn that passion for personal development and entrepreneurship into something that could actually support me and how I could make a living doing that. And, you know, I had the look at Instagram and YouTube at the time and having a podcast, et cetera, but everything I tried. 

Just didn't work well for me because I didn't enjoy it. It's not that I tried to make it work. I didn't even try most of the things because I just didn't enjoy taking pictures or asking other people to take pictures of me. And that's, you know, that's how you start on Instagram. You don't start out being perfect. 

I had no idea how to edit videos or shoot video. So it was no option for me to do YouTube. And over time, I also realized that writing is kind of the simplest way. First of all, I can do it by myself. I don't need anyone. I don't need any equipment other than my laptop. I don't even need the internet connection if I just want to blog write and upload articles at a different time. 

And I just fell in love with that simplicity because I do love writing, but I didn't start because I loved it. I just fell in love with the process over time. And it is because of the simplicity. I know a lot of people who think that it's, it's terrible, what I'm doing and it's terrible. They could never imagine writing like three articles a week or so, because they just don't enjoy writing. 

Yeah. I don't compare myself to anyone who is, you know, in a corporate job or in any kind of different position. But if I look at other types of content, I would prefer writing over anything because it is so flexible and simple to me personally. I know that's not true for everyone.  

[00:06:48] David Gwyn: No, I love that. I love the idea. 

I think that's so interesting. The word you use is simplicity. And I think that's really true when you think about the way it goes from, I think mediums really made this a simple process, right? Like people used to have to have your own blog and you'd have to have a website and had to find traffic. And right now mediums making it simple to, for people to get. 

You know, their ideas to an audience. I think that that simplicity all the way through is like a, is a really good way to point that out. So to kind of go on that, I I'm wondering how you kind of structure your days. I mean, I know you obviously, you know, you write a lot but what does it look like? 

Are you writing in the mornings and then doing more business stuff on the backend? Like, what is your, what does your normal day look like?  

[00:07:28] Sinem Günel: Yeah, I don't write every single day now, but If I write, I write in the morning and that's for me really important. Like I never do admin stuff in the mornings. If I do that, if I check my emails in the morning, I kind of feel like I'm not focused for the rest of the day. 

Like I know how I work and I just tried to set my days up in a way that it works in my favor. If I write, I really write in the morning, it's like until noon and then I'd have lunch. And in the afternoon I do more business and admin related stuff. I really try to prioritize the big chunks in the morning and just get it done. 

I, what I also learned along the way is that I don't try to. Kind of overdeliver expect too much from, from myself. Basically I have a very short to-do list. daily, but also weekly and try to eliminate as much as possible. So I can do a few things that lead to the results that I, that I want to create, but I try to be really intentional about which tasks I complete at all. 

I feel like that's what actually gives me so much space and flexibility. And that's what I really appreciate about being my own boss and having my own business, to be honest, because I know a lot of people who are their own boss, but when I ended up doing a thousand things and end up having a full calendar, You know, especially, whereas when you're working with different time zones, because you can have meetings scheduled at 9:00 PM at night because it's it's morning for someone else. 

And I tried to be really careful about that because you know, I hustled a lot. I worked a lot and I, I learned that I want to have boundaries and. I feel well above all. So I try to be really careful about, yeah. I  

[00:09:22] David Gwyn: love that. I think, I think that idea of like the short to-do lists, so you have, like, you can enjoy the lifestyle that you've created. 

And, and about being efficient, I think is one thing. Writers struggle with, I think because we always feel like, well, if I sit down for another hour, can I get a little bit more done, a little bit more done, a little bit more done. And I like that idea that messaging of short to-do lists be efficient with your time and then enjoy that. 

The lifestyle that you've kind of cultivated I think is, is great. A question that keeps coming up to people who are starting medium or want to start medium or. Thinking about medium, which is this idea that is it too late, you know, has the ship sailed to make money on medium? How, how do you respond to that? 

Do you hear that a lot? And what do you say to people who asked that question?  

[00:10:04] Sinem Günel: Yeah, I think that's a question that comes up on any platform. Like. Tik Tok up, hasn't been really popular like five years ago, or probably not even like three years ago. And people are still asking the same question. I think it, I think it's also normal because you know, the reason people ask the questions because they don't want to waste their time. 

They want to be sure that it's going to be worth their time. The problem is that you can never be sure like you can, if you are the first one on the platform, you can't be sure. And if you join the platform after 10 years, . I am pretty sure that you're not late. And I see it all the time and my community. 

I have a Facebook group of over 8,000 people who are just focused on writing a medium. We constantly see those great success stories of people who recently started writing. I see that with my own students. And I personally was not really, I've not been really. To the game as well. So when I started, there has been people with like tens of thousands of followers already who were obviously having an easier time than me because they were there really early on when, when you didn't have the chance to follow thousands of writers. 

But what I see is that it's it's by far not too late. What that, what is true is that you need to be. A better writer than I was in the beginning. Like I did get, I didn't get a lot of fuse at the beginning, but I didn't even deserve to feel like that if I'm like really honest because you know, I had no idea how to write for an audience. 

My headlines were really bad. I'm not a native speaker and I didn't even use a spelling or grammar checker. And did that, that the bar bar is higher. But I think that's not a bad thing because if you want to, you know, if you want people to read what you write. I think it's fair to expect the writing to be good. 

Overall, like if I had to decide now, if you know, when I started writing on medium or not, I would still up for it because if you want to really build an audience. And not right for freelance clients or, you know, ghost writing clients. I personally don't know any other platform that is offering you. 

What media is off medium is offering. As of now, maybe there is a place that I don't know about yet, but I think what medium is offering in terms of, you know, being allowed to build your audience on medium, being allowed to have a call to action and build an email list and monetize it. You know, your readers on the platform that is really unique. 

And I've seen a lot and checked out a lot of places over the last four years. But I didn't discover or any other place that makes it so easy to actually covered three aspects, which are all really  

[00:12:56] David Gwyn: powerful.  

Yeah. I, I love there's a lot that you just said that I definitely want to dig into quickly, which is like, I think that there's, there's huge learning curve, which I think is absolutely true. 

And I think that's kind of true for anybody writing. I think you can't just show up on medium your first day and be like, oh, I got it. I get how it works. It's certainly, there's certainly something that. But  

[00:13:16] Sinem Günel: the thing is sorta, I'm interrupting, but that's not happening in any platform. Like, like, imagine you want to build your own website and you need to drive traffic to your website. 

Pretty much guaranteed that it's going to take more work and more different types of work to build a website and to drive, let's say, SEO, traffic to your blog, then to figure out how to, you know, build an audience on medium. And that's kind of the simplicity. So I think if you expect to build an audience without work. 

And you'll figure it out, let us know. I don't think there's a way to make that work. And I figured it's fair.  

[00:13:57] David Gwyn: Yeah, no. And I think too, that, that second part, that idea about the audience I think is so interesting. It's something that I, I don't hear enough of, of medium writers talking about, which is they're really the really good ones are the ones who are collecting email addresses and they're finding readers and they're staying in touch with them. 

In a way that like people trying to go viral aren't and I think that's such a smart way of going about it is like maintaining an audience. And I know, I, it's funny, you mentioned the Facebook group a while back. Actually, that's how I found you. I was looking for a Facebook group but yeah, it's, it's that, that ability to find and maintain and stay in contact with an audience that I think is so powerful and. Is that like traditional writers don't think about. And I think it's that business minded marketing minded, entrepreneurship background that a lot of writers don't consider and I think is so important. 

 Okay. Let's pause so far. We've learned that success in our writing comes with a mindset shift from hobby to business. 

If you want to write as a hobby and for yourself, that's perfectly fine, but if you want to write full-time or to make a huge impact and reach lots of readers, you have to think of yourself like an entrepreneur. I want to make a quick plug here for the five minute writer. This is a new series I'm doing to help you save. 

It's a free weekly newsletter providing five minutes summaries of a longer article or podcast video, or course it's designed to give you the highlights without the fluff. So you can gain the knowledge without wasting time. That way you can get back to writing, be sure to sign up, to get the first edition right now it's linked below. 

And the next part of this interview listen to what Sinem, says about selling the next sentence. I loved this idea so much, regardless of your. She can help you rethink the ways to keep readers reading. We also talk about what makes her medium writing academy so successful. So if you're interested in writing on medium or learning more, you definitely want to hang out for that. 

Let's head back to the. 

 So you have the medium writing academy. Why did you choose to start.  

[00:15:58] Sinem Günel: I wrote over 150 articles or a period of one and a half years without really understanding how to build an audience or make money on medium. And looking back, I'm actually really fascinated by myself that I made it through these 150 articles without seeing incredible results. 

And without having that very specific, why in my mind. I have no idea what my driver was. I think I was just curious and even getting, you know, a few comments was just really interesting to me. And seeing that a few people were kind of reading and interacting was rewarding enough because. I didn't have much time back then. 

I was literally waking up at like 5:00 AM, 6:00 AM writing, then going to my full-time job. Then I was studying for my exams. And somehow in between, I still found the time to do that. But at the end of 2019, I decided that I wanted to write more regularly and that I wanted to kind of make it work because I found out that it's one of the few things I really enjoyed. 

You know, over that period of three, four years of trying different things and. Once I made that decision and went kind of all in and wrote almost every single day and analyzed like pretty much every successful writer on the platform. I realized that it worked, it worked really quickly for me. Like I went from making, you know, I don't know, 70, 80 bucks a month to making almost 2000 bucks in January and then went to more than. 

8,000 in February would was like incredible for me, those were like amounts. I never imagined to be possible to earn on the internet by doing something I love, like that was mind blowing for me at that time. And I was like, oh my God, this works. And if it works from me, I'm pretty sure there are other people interested in, in doing the same. 

And I actually started by sharing the information with my. Kind of own inner circle and. A local community here in Vienna, we have a coworking space and the students Postel thing. And they did webinars at the beginning of the very first lockdowns and I just shared my experiences. 

And then we figured out there, there are a bunch of people who actually want to learn more. So we offered a very small group mentoring. Package. And based on that, we built the entire medium writing academy, but it was really that idea of, oh my God, this works. And if it works for me, a person who had no idea how to write into it definitely is not kind of gifted or talented or anything. 

It can also work for others. And I thought this is a really exciting thing. I see it in a way that, you know, more writers sharing their ideas and thoughts and making medium a more valuable place means that we can all together serve a bigger audience. And I found that idea really exciting and interesting. 

And as I said, also with our workshops and trainings, I've always loved to educate. And I thought that it's, you know, personal development. That I was really excited to teach, but I found out that I also really love the business side. And for me, writing is kind of business because I found out that if you have a job you hate, it's really hard to have an overall life you're genuinely enjoyed because our work takes up so much time in our weekly schedules. 

And I just, I was just really excited about. Opening that door for as many people as possible and say, Hey, this is an opportunity you have. And if you have a message you are excited about, and if you enjoy writing, and if you want to learn how to write, this could be something for you. And I know that it's not the right thing for everyone. 

But I thought it's, it's an idea worth pursuing and that's how it all kind of started. And yeah. Grew in a very short amount of time.  

[00:20:11] David Gwyn: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think too, when, when we think about you know, make, make, when we talk about medium and we talk about people making money with their writing on medium, I mean, you're talking about just like two or three years ago, you're doing this, you're starting and you're building this, this whole audience. 

That that's kind of in a lot of ways, an answer to people who question and if it's still possible, I mean, this is, this is still at the beginning stages of what it's going to be at some point. So I think that's really interesting when you're, when you're doing these trainings. And when you, you know, now that you have the medium writing academy, What kinds of people, or what kinds of treats do you see in the really successful students? 

Like the ones that stick around the ones that are successful? I mean, I think like we're talking about it. I imagine like writing skills is only a small portion of that success.  

[00:20:55] Sinem Günel: It's really, if you are willing to learn or not. I see a lot of people who consume lots of, lots of content, also my content some of them are really paying students who go through the course and they know what they should do and how they should write, or they could probably like. 

Tell me the answer is if I have, if I ask questions, but they don't change the way they write. And in writing, this is really funny because you can know how to write, but then still do what you've always been doing. And I think this is, this is it's, it's really tricky. If you don't have someone telling you, Hey, This is not clear to me because if you write something it's always clear and obvious to you because you know what you mean, but it's not clear to me because I'm not in your head. 

And that's where, where a lot of people kind of miss the point, because it's not about, you know, watching videos about writing. It's about. No. If I tell you how I would improve a headline, you have to ask yourself, why would she write it that way? And that's why I am trying to be really careful about not just telling my students do this and do that, but telling them why they should take certain steps and why they should change. 

their are titles that are title image their, their paragraphs or a certain sentence. And I think you can, in writing, you can learn a lot by questioning why somebody is doing something a certain way. And I think the more thoughtful you are, the easier it's going to be for you to find a way. To build an audience on your own way, kind of without imitating someone or copying someone. 

And I think that's a really huge point, not just consuming content and doing what someone else is doing, but if you want to do it in a sustainable way, be really critical and you know, question everything that's possible. Like even if you read books, like I never thought I would be able to judge books, but now as I read a book. 

I know that certain books are written in a way that I could never be an article because it's so lengthy and it's okay for a book, but you would not make it through an article written in a similar way. If you're reading it on the internet. And if you start to look at it that way you actually gain a lot of insights and perspective. 

[00:23:26] David Gwyn: Yeah. I love that. So when, when you think about your medium writing academy, I mean, I know there's a fair number of other courses out there. What is, what sets your academy apart or what sets your trainings apart from, from the other.  

[00:23:39] Sinem Günel: I had a look at all the other programs. I know them and I tried to create something that is just more helpful for me. 

That's two things. On the one side I constantly try to update and improve the program based on my own experiences. And I know that. A really bad thing that's happens sometimes is when the creator, of course, you know, when I joined medium, if I would have joined medium, like seven years ago and I succeeded seven years ago and I built my audience really quickly, I might not be able to understand the pain points of a writer. 

If we started last week. I tried to be really careful with that by a constantly analyzing my own work and asking myself do the rules still apply. And I believe that I'm in a unique position also because of my Facebook group. Because I'm constantly getting feedback from. Writers who are struggling and have questions. 

And I'm trying to incorporate that feedback into the course pretty much all the time. And we are doing multiple updates per year. So, so that's one thing, really trying to stay up to date on what the community is thinking and struggling with. And combining that with the data that I'm seeing on my side, because I, I often get the feedback that big writers are saying their stats are down and they're not making the money they used. 

Back in the days, et cetera. And then when I look at my own data and my stats, and when I looked at, you know, the feedback from my students or people who started just recently and are doing more. And I can see that it works, then I'm not going to spread that fear and tell people to do anything differently. 

If I would see it in, in my kind of backend, I would tell them to change their approach. But as long as I see it, I will, keep sharing what I do and. And then the second thing is that I think it's, it's actually two different approaches. You have to perspective of understanding medium as a platform and understanding that medium is just. 

First of all, not a writing platform, but the reading platform and understanding that it's, you need to think of it from the perspective of a reader and that marketing is part of it, because if you, you are basically trying to sell every single article, you can. You are selling the title when you kind of sold them, the click you're selling the first paragraph and you always want to sell the next sentence. 

And first I want to really understand my students that it, as you said, that it's not that romantic relationship with writing, but to look at it from a more. Marketing and kind of structured perspective and then combine that with actual writing advice, because I know a lot of articles and courses and videos about medium that kind of teach you how medium works, but at the end of the day, you still need to write and you need. 

Ideas that help you to come up with headlines and you need formulas that help you craft great introductions and, and you need help with kind of cleaning up your sentences and your paragraphs and all that stuff. And I think that's actually two different things because I can teach you how medium works, but then you can still fail. 

If you don't understand how to write well on Medium. But if you know how to write well, you can use that knowledge on other platforms as well. And that was actually also one of my goals. Like if someone goes through to medium writing academy and they decide for some reason, they don't want to write a medium. 

They should still gain a lot of knowledge and insights about blogging and writing online in general, which they can use on their own website on LinkedIn, on Instagram captions, et cetera. So the writing principles we include are kind of universal and applied to all sorts of online writing and that applies to content writing, but we also dig into copywriting. 

And kind of tried to give different perspectives because I feel like it's never black and white and you always have those different nuances that need to play together.  

[00:28:00] David Gwyn: Hmm. Yeah. I think that's a phenomenal way of looking at it. And I think anyone, anyone listening, who's looking for a writing course specifically for medium, more like you're saying kind of beyond, I love that kind of idea of. 

The fact that you're in touch with people who are starting on medium consistently and hearing from them and getting that feedback is invaluable. When, when you think about starting out on a platform, and so if you've got someone, you know, listening and they're like, okay, I'm hooked like, hell yeah. It seems like my kind of thing seems awesome. 

What do you suggest? Or like, what is their kind of starting off point if they're not super familiar with medium. But they are excited about this opportunity to, to write and make a living that way. What, what do you think is their, the best first step for them?  

[00:28:46] Sinem Günel: Yeah, come join our Facebook group. 

That's a great place with tons of resources. So it's medium writing academy on Facebook. And we also have a website it's medium writing academy.com where you can basically find links to the Facebook group to free resources articles. And I'm actually currently preparing a lot of other new resources. 

For people who are brand new to the site, to people who are struggling with specific questions, like how do I write better headlines? How do I come up with ideas, et cetera. So this year is for me a year off, really creating resources for writing. So yeah, come, come join us. Come say, hi, join the email list. 

And you'll be able to stay in the loop and get the newest resources and updates as soon as possible.  

[00:29:36] David Gwyn: Yeah, that's great. And I'll, I'll link all that stuff in the notes. If you're listening and you want quick access to that, I'll I'll link. Like I said, I'm in that Facebook group, I love being a part of the communities, especially something like medium where that, that platform it's. 

I think got to figure out how to, how to make it work for you. And you gotta figure out where you fit and I'm reading articles. Like you're saying kind of getting that, that specific voice I think is, is really important. Is there, are there any mistakes, a common mistakes that you see medium writers making that, that are things that are just holding them back that you think you can, you can share right now with people, keep an eye on  

[00:30:11] Sinem Günel: Yeah, there's actually a few things that are very common and mistakes that I also made. 

I mean headlines are a very big thing. I was actually preparing a training copywriting today and there was this quote chuffing kind of, you know, that the title that 90% of people. For read the title, don't read the rest of the text or something like that, but it's, it's really incredible how much the title matters. 

And in the beginning you just feel like you have this great idea. You want to share it. And then you write the article. And then you type a random title and don't really think about it because it feels like the idea or the message you have in the text is so valuable. The problem is that nobody will see the message if they don't click on the title. 

So We could talk for hours about how to improve titles, but, you know, there are tons of free resources on YouTube, tons of kind of freebies that if you headline templates and stuff, you're really just one Google search away from kind of figuring it out. Just accept that it is a really important thing and it makes sense to spend more time on titles. 

One other mistake that often comes with the title is being too focused on ourselves and not on the reader. So my writing is very much directed to the reader. Trying to give them very specific, actionable advice. I do incorporate my own points of view and lessons. I personally learned through stories of my life, et cetera, but I try to stay away from being too focused on what I did or what I experienced. 

Obviously the depends on the type of writing you want to do. And you know, if you want to do nonfiction, educational writing, Which is the case for me with personal development, business and entrepreneurship, it's really better to stay centered around the reader and ask yourself, how is this helping the reader? 

And if it's not, is it worth staying there or do I better remove it? So, so those are two really big points because it's really hard in the headline. If you're talking about yourself, To give the reader a reason to still click because a lot of the time when people talk about themselves in the title, I have no idea what might be in that article for me. 

And that's really the question like as a reader, you're always asking yourself, what's in it for me, is, is that worth my time? And if you know that question is that easy to answer. You're going to lose a lot of potential readers who might love what you have to share, but we're just not going to be convinced enough to click. 

[00:32:54] David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that's, that's phenomenal advice. I, and things I've heard before, when, when we think about the writing that we're doing and how it functions differently on, you know, on a platform I think, and it goes back to what you're saying. Medium is a platform for readers. Not for writers. And so you, you gotta be thinking about the readers. 

It's not, you know, it's not a place to, I mean, it can be a place to post vanity posts and just write about your life and that's perfectly fine. But if you're trying to build a readership, you know, thinking about the readers and the people who are coming to your article is so important. I want to nerd out for a second. 

I'm to ask you a question because you brought up copywriting and I always think of medium as a content. Platform like a content writing platform. How does copywriting, which is, this is a slightly different style of writing. It's more marketing and selling. How much of what you're doing is copywriting or how much of your doing is content? 

Like how do you kind of blend those two in an article?  

[00:33:49] Sinem Günel: Yeah, that's an interesting point. I think introductions have. Kind of a copywriting component to them because you're kind of trying to sell the rest of the article. You know,, the first sentence of the article, it is content, but it has a very copy kind of character because it needs to be strong. 

And then you can lose a lot of readers in your first few sentences. So that's one of the things where I spend a lot of time on, like, I can write an article. Pretty quickly, but I have my swipe files and my backup rough ideas of how to start an article. And I constantly look at my own work and see what worked well in the past for my introduction specifically. 

And then it tells us each, the starting of each paragraph is also kind of a mini introduction. So I always try to be intentional about how, how do I make them want more and, you know, read more. And at the end of the article, again, we have to this point of making them want more. So they click on the landing page on, on the subscription page for the email newsletter. 

So I feel like. In a subtle way. It always works together because yes, I want them to read my content and to love it. But if I want that, I have to be really clear in the introduction. And I, for me, that is kind of an intersection of content and copywriting. And I think it just makes sense to understand basic copywriting principles. 

So you can kind of play around with the two and then That's kind of a feeling based thing, but at the end of the article, I always try to kind of make that wave into making them feel good so that they are like, ha that was nice. I think I want to read more like that. I feel like if they feel like that they either click to my next article or they click and subscribe to my email list, which is kind of a big win for me. 

So it's, it's more of a, in your mind asking yourself, what do I want them to do next in a truck, the entire article. I want them to read more and I'm not selling anything. But I still want them to do something. And then in the end, that's just, , how can I make them feel a certain way so that they take one of those two options of either, or there's probably more options. 

Like, even if they just give me a follow, that's a huge win because they are more likely to see my work in the future. So that's the way I try to think about it.  

[00:36:34] David Gwyn: Yeah. I love that. Copywriting is about selling you usually a product or something. But I think the way you're thinking about it is you're almost like selling yourself or you're selling your work. 

You're selling your writing paragraph by paragraph, which I think is a really interesting way of thinking about it. So my last question is if there was kind of one thing that you think people should take away from this conversation, if you could boil it all down to one thing, what would that one thing. 

[00:36:59] Sinem Günel: It's probably actually what we said in the beginning. If you want to make money writing and you want to turn it into a business don't be afraid to look at it from a business perspective. You can love writing and you can love the process, but You can back it up by numbers. 

And as soon as you want to make money writing and you want to make a living it's just way more fun. If you don't have to worry about the money side, it just gives you so much more flexibility and a peace of mind. But it's something you first got to figure out. So. , ask yourself in terms of, marketing metrics and business numbers, and try to look at writing from that perspective. 

Because if you do that for a while, you will have way more opportunities in the future. And that that's the thing for me, like. Try to encourage my students to, you know, write the kind of articles that tend to do really well on medium. And some of them just don't like to write it that way now, listicles. 

And how two articles work exceptionally well on medium, they work well on the internet. If you're honest, simply because people love to read them. If you don't like to write those types of articles, you just have to be way more creative and put way more effort into it, which is not bad. You gotta know that and you have to be familiar with the facts because I have written so many listicles and how-to articles 

I can now afford to write stuff just for fun, you know, without any regrets, but that's because I have built my backlog. I could now write whatever I want and I would get, you know, a fair amount of views. And I would, I would still get feedback, but that's because I've been very strict in the beginning about following the rules, right. 

Being slightly data-driven and kind of analyzing so much. And for, for me that works better and I feel more comfortable doing that instead of writing something that is incredibly creative and brand new, but kind of doesn't pay the bills. If I'm dependent on that. If you are writing for fun and you want to, you know, keep your day job and you just explore your interests on the side. 

That's fine, but if you want to, make a living writing, I think it's useful to have that business perspective and marketing perspective.  

[00:39:20] David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that's a great message to end on. So Sinem thanks so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. I feel like I learned so much in just a short amount of time. 

 If you're still listening and this, this seems like your type of thing, which I imagine it is, make sure you check the links down in the notes. ,and Take a read of what Sinem is putting out there. Cause I think it's really, really helpful. So thanks again.  

Okay. Wasn't that idea of selling the next sentence? Super interesting. I'm already thinking of how to use that idea in longer fiction pieces. So obviously I'm a huge fan of medium and see it as a side hustle, but also as a way to reach more readers, regardless of your genre, if you're ready to take this writing thing, seriously, medium is a great option to start to build your reader list and make a little bit. 

I'm going to be doubling down on medium next month. So be sure to follow me. And if you sign up or you already are a member on medium, reach out via email or social media so I can follow you. If you are interested in medium, be sure to use the affiliate link in the show notes to sign up. It doesn't cost you anything extra, but helps me maintain the podcast and all the other great content we do here at writerly lifestyle. 

My next interview is with Alison Buccola, a debut author. She and I talk about her experiences writing and publishing her first book. Her writing routine and more so be sure to subscribe. So you don't miss that See you soon!