What to Expect from Working with an Agent on Your Debut Novel with Author Elle Grawl

5 Minute Writer
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Elle's Website
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3 BIG TAKEAWAYS

1. Agent author relationship
2. Editing your manuscript
3. Using your life experiences to influence your fiction

EPISODE INFO:
Are you wondering what happens after you sign with an agent? Will you go through edits? What will that relationship be like? Today’s guest is going to tell us what to expect when we enter into that important relationship.

Today’s guest is debut author Elle Grawl. She is a lawyer, professor, and author of psychological thrillers One of Those Faces (out now) and What Still Burns (coming Aug. 2023).

In this episode, I asked Elle all about her querying process, as well as what happened after she signed with her agent. It’s a really interesting part of the process that we don’t hear about too much and I thought it was so interesting. 

BIO:
Elle Grawl is a lawyer by day and writer by night. After obtaining her B.A. in English Literature, she took a detour into law before returning to her love of writing. 

Her lifelong interest in true crime and experiences as an attorney have provided her with plenty of writing material. Elle enjoys traveling and spending time with her husband and their two dogs. 

Tweet me @DavidRGwyn

Transcript

WLIS 234 EG

Elle Grawl: [00:00:00] just because a project maybe isn't working now doesn't mean that it won't ever be able to work. So if you can just push through to the next project. That's like a newer, fresher thing to get you excited about writing. I think as long as you can power through the next idea each time, don't give up on those other ones.

It's just, you know, it's not, not never, but it's just not right now. 

David Gwyn: Are you wondering what happens after you sign with an agent? Will you go through edits? What will that relationship even be like? Today's guest is going to tell us what to expect when we enter into that important relationship. I'm David Gwyn, a writer querying a finished manuscript while writing a new project and trying to navigate the world of traditional publishing along the way.

During this new season of the podcast, I'm asking agents, book coaches and authors about the best way to write a novel. If you want the Expert secrets, this is where you're going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to literary agent Helen Lane in a great interview about how she [00:01:00] goes about looking at submissions, 

what you should be thinking about when looking for an agent and so much more. 

Helen Lane: Everyone says voice and that is the least helpful thing, but unfortunately that is true. There is something, whether that is in the style of writing or the way that the character is presented there is something that will speak to you and right from the start you will. , I don't know, relax and sink into it and forget that this is the start of a new book.

David Gwyn: That interview is linked in the description if you wanna check it out. Today's guest is debut author Elle Grawl. She's a lawyer, professor, and author of psychological thrillers. One of those faces, which is out now, and what still burns, which is coming in August of 2023.

In this episode, I asked Elle all about her querying process as well as what happens after she's signed with her agent. It's a really interesting part of the process that we don't hear about too much, so let's get straight to the interview.

Elle, welcome to the Writer Lifestyle interview series. I wanna start [00:02:00] out by saying congratulations, the launch of your debut novel. One of those faces just about a week in. How does it feel? 

Elle Grawl: Thanks so much, David. Yeah, it's it's been interesting.

Yeah. A week out. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that my book is out there, but yeah. Yeah. 

David Gwyn: That's really cool. And so tell us what is one of those faces. . 

Elle Grawl: So it's, it follows a young artist in Chicago. She's kind of had a rough go at life from the beginning. And she's trying to find her footing as an adult and as a freelance artist in the city.

And while she's still trying to recover from all these issues from our past suddenly these murders start occurring and. The first victim looks startlingly similar to her, and it kind of sets her on a, on a new downward spiral. Different from her, her previous ones. . . 

David Gwyn: Yeah. It's awesome. It was, it's a, it's such a fun read.

So if you're listening now and you haven't grabbed it yet, definitely grab it. And it's a really unique premise. How did you come up with the idea for this? . 

Elle Grawl: Yeah. [00:03:00] So I actually, I've had weird doppelganger things happening to me since I was a teenager And I don't know, I kind of just, it is, it's like a funny little anecdote each time when I tell people about it.

But then a few years ago when I, before I started writing this, I was telling my husband about the latest weird run-in where he'd, he'd been kind of present away from it. And then when I caught up with him, I was telling him the story about it and then he knew that I wanted to pick up writing fiction again.

And he was like, why don't you write about that? That's so weird. , right? What if, what if a doppelganger of yours turned up murdered? And I was like, that's a really good idea what talking about it. And I was like, I love this idea. So so yeah. 

David Gwyn: That's great. That's so funny. So let, let's go back a little bit and, and talk about how you got started writing.

Did you always know you wanted to be a writer? 

Elle Grawl: Yes. I, I did. So, I'm, I'm also a lawyer and I didn't know that I wanted to do that right off the [00:04:00] bat, but writing has been you know, like the one. consistent thing that I always told people I wanted to be a writer when I grew up. And then, you know, like other little kids, like I think your dream job changes, you know, like every week.

Right. Writing was kind of my consistent thing. I was like, maybe I'll be a doctor, but I also wanna be a writer no matter what 

David Gwyn: I think you're the, at least the third or fourth. Person I've interviewed who was a lawyer and then got into the publishing world one way or another, whether, you know, as a writer or an editor and, and an agent, actually, I've talked and I'm, I'm wondering what is it you think about either, is it, is it writers are drawn to law degrees or are law lawyers drawn to writing?

Do you, where's the correlation? 

Elle Grawl: I don't, I've had other people ask me that randomly, . Cause I, I feel like that's a, a recurring thing. There's a lot of lawyers who are somehow related to books right now. Yeah. You know, Kristen, Hannah, I didn't realize this, but she was actually a [00:05:00] lawyer. Oh, wow. Yeah. Anyway, she's kind of one of the big names that I didn't even know she had been an attorney.

But I, I don't know. Honestly, I think the lawyers who wanted to be writers. First and then they became lawyers. I think they find a way of returning back to it. Because legal writing is, I think it's helpful maybe to get some structure as a writer. But at the same time, it's so different from creative writing.

Maybe people are just trying to escape the law. I don't know.

David Gwyn: Has it always been thrillers or is that something that's new? 

Elle Grawl: That is actually pretty new. I didn't really read, I think I read mysteries here and there, like Agatha Christie. I was kind of a big fan of hers when I was a kid.

When I was a teenager, I was really into. fantasy or like urban fantasy novels, which is completely different, right? . And I don't know. I, I think I've picked up my first thriller as an adult. Maybe, maybe in-law school or maybe an undergrad. 

David Gwyn: What was your writing process like for, for one of those face. . 

Elle Grawl: So it [00:06:00] was very chaotic and unfortunately, my, my writing process is the same with my next book, and my, my current book that I'm working on too. I, I just, I don't know what it is about. Like I said, when you're, when you're a lawyer doing legal writing, there's a lot of structure that goes into it.

But for whatever reason, I cannot bring that same structure to my creative writing project. So I'm not, I'm not an outliner. I kind of start with, so specifically with one of those faces, I knew the general idea, you know, about the doppel, gangers and, you know, murder. And then I knew the ending and then kind of, I kind of just let everything else along the way be a little bit of a.

Which is difficult. It's difficult to juggle with a thriller specifically, I think. Cuz there's so many weird subplots that pop up to keep track of everything. And so I'm kind of maybe like a reverse outliner. Like I, I make these little things now. That I call like my little book Bibles. So I'll keep a [00:07:00] document open and as I write I'll kind of like update it, like okay, keep track of this

David Gwyn: Oh 

Elle Grawl: yeah. But it, it is a surprise to me. And then I'm like, oh, great, I'm gonna add this to the document, you know, so I can keep track of it later. for content. 

David Gwyn: So. So, sounds like you have some other stories in the works. How much can you tell us about what's coming 

Elle Grawl: next? . Yeah, so I I do have a book that's coming out in August 2023.

And that one is, it's a, a psychological thriller that takes place in northern California. The, the main character, she's the sole survivor of a family fire from when she was a child. It's just a lot of concrete memories of it. But the death of a family member forces her to go back and. Reckon with all these family secrets that she, you know, didn't really remember as a child.

David Gwyn: Okay, let's pause there for a second. So far, we've talked about Elle's Road to publication, but now we're going to get to the main part of the conversation. . Elle's going to reveal what it's [00:08:00] like after you sign with an agent. Like I said in the intro, we don't get to hear this perspective very much. So it was a really fun conversation to have.

One thing I want you to think about is how selective Elle was with her Remember, this is your story and you want to find a partner who's going to help you bring it to. Also make note of how many queries it took Elle to find the right fit. Now she's writing her third novel.

Don't worry about finding an agent fast. Worry about finding the right agent. 

If you're new here, I hope you're enjoying this interview.

If you've listened to a few episodes, I'm glad 

If you could, I'm going to ask you to do one of three things you can choose first. If you're enjoying this episode, consider sharing on social media. If you do share, be sure to tag me. I love connecting with people and continuing the conversation started on the podcast. Option to rate and or review the podcast. It takes less than a minute and it will really make my day. 

Or option three, share with a writer friend, you have maybe [00:09:00] a critique partner or just someone, you know, who's a writer. I hope this content will help people in their writing careers. And I need your help to spread the word. Do whichever of those three things you'd like to, but it means the world to me, if you would do just one. Thanks. 

 Let me take you back to you've, you finished kind of your maybe first draft of one of those faces or maybe second draft. And then how did you go from this first, second draft wherever you were to making it submission ready for, for 

Elle Grawl: agents?

So I'd, I'd written here and there when I was growing up, but I had never really researched what it took to get published traditionally. So I, I had started, I knew when I was writing the book that I wanted to try to find an agent and get it published traditionally. So I kind of was gearing up towards that before I had finished like my first draft, and then I, I edited it pretty heavily.

 Once you start on querying agents, I think. . I think I started [00:10:00] editing as I was waiting to hear back from people. And then when I first got rejections, each time I would edit, I'd be like, okay, what do I need to again? Because maybe there's something, you know, missing.

And so I would edit as I went, so I feel like with a book, you're never gonna be 100% happy with it. You could always change something. So, Yeah. 

David Gwyn: So speaking of agents, I, I always like to have authors on here, give their kind of agent shout out. And so I know you're rep by Abby Saul of the LAR group, right?

And so can you talk a little bit about what you were looking for in an agent and, and how Abby and you worked together? What is it about Abby that made you wanna work with her? 

Elle Grawl: Abby had actually been on my original query. List. So she had been kind of in my first batch of people, but she was close to queries at the time, and so I kind of skipped over her and I highlighted her for later. And then a hundred rejections later, I was like, okay, I'm about to give up , ok, lemme look.[00:11:00]

Lemme look at who else I can, you know, figure out. And then I was like, oh, Abby, I wonder if she's open. And several months had passed by that point and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna give it a shot. And and anyway, and then she responded immediately, I think within a few hours of me sending a, I think just my query.

And then when I, she offered just a few days later, she really loved the book. And when I spoke to her, her editorial vision really lined up, I think, with what I wanted to do. And I had, I had spoken with a couple of agents kind of, who didn't offer and they. , they had a lot of issues with certain aspects of the ending that I was not willing to change

And and there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with what they were saying, but there were, and I, I did end up changing the ending a little bit when I was working with a developmental editor with my publisher. But I don't know. There were just key points that I wanted to keep the structure of and and Abby seemed like she was on board with that, and she [00:12:00] loved the story.

She loved my main character, and I had feedback back and forth from people who hate my character or really like her. So that was important for me to, to find somebody. , you know, empathized with Harper 

David Gwyn: as well. Yeah. That's so funny. I think a lot of writers who are on the UN agent side are just like, I'll take anybody who will offer.

And I feel like it's such a, it, it really requires you to take the time to find someone who has the same vision that you have. And I love the way you put that, that she had the same kinda editorial vision. For what you were trying to accomplish. And I, I think the more I talk to authors and the more I hear authors talking about this, that, that it's not that your book needs to be perfect, it's that it needs to be good enough that an agent can see, what you're looking to try to do and just help you get there.

And I really love that. I, I can't stress enough how many times I love when writers bring that up. They're like, no, it, it wasn't anybody. It was a person. Saw my [00:13:00] vision, wanted to help me bring it to life. And I think that's really important for authors to remember. 

Elle Grawl: Yeah, absolutely. And I mentally, I was at that point where I was like, I, I was like, I'm giving this one more shot, and then at this point, if I can't find an agent, you know, I'm, I'm out.

But even at that point, it was really important to me to, like, I wasn't gonna compromise on the ending in certain respects, but, you know, I think you do. Like you said, you have to find somebody. Going to actually help you accomplish what you're trying to. And there were a lot of things at that point when when Abby got on board that they weren't really translating onto the page the way that I wanted them to.

And so she was instrumental in, you know, getting it to where it needed to be, I think for what I wanted. So, yeah. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. That's awesome. And so now that you've, you know, you got first book published, second book Ready Waiting in the Wings, and it sounds like you're onto your third one. Is there, is there something that people who are listening who are, you know, still editing, still working on that, that manuscript, [00:14:00] is there something that, now that you've gone through that process a couple times, that when you sit down to work on your book, is there something that you think about now that you didn't think about before you were published?

Is there anything that goes through your head that you. , make sure I do this thing. Like is there, is there something that stands out to you? 

Elle Grawl: So I'm really grateful that I got my second book finished before my first book came out . Hmm. Because I think, I think I was able to, to kind of power through that book without a lot of.

Well, not, not a lot of, but without too much second guessing. Because my first book, I hadn't received a lot of feedback from the public on it. , . And, and I'm really happy with both of my books, but I, I've heard a lot of authors talk about that sophomore slump. You know, when your first book comes out, you kind of get in your own head.

You've heard all these different voices about your, your first work. So I think. Kind of going into my third book, it's a little bit better because I'm like, well, I've already done this [00:15:00] twice. And I think I'm just gonna keep, you know, try to put the blinders on and just power through it. But I can imagine if, you know, if your first book comes out and then you immediately just try to go into your second book, I think, I think that would probably be really tricky.

So, . Yeah. 

David Gwyn: I've heard this from, from other authors as well, that they're like, while you're querying and while you're waiting, like just do the next thing and like have things lined up and ready to go. And, and that's a, that's another interesting way of, of phrasing that, that that there's almost too much feedback.

I imagine you probably go from no feedback on your manuscript when, when you're writing it on your own and then like just a ton of feedback all at once. I can't. What it's like to try to juggle all that. That's, that sounds like a lot. 

Elle Grawl: Yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been a journey. So so I'm, I'm grateful for everybody reading it, but it's, yeah, it's just, it is weird to kind of go into your own little world of writing, you know?

I, when I started the book when I started writing one of those face, , I didn't really [00:16:00] have any critique partners or anything, and I was just kind of doing my own thing. And then, you know, you get an agent and then you get an editor and you're getting a lot of rejection and feedback at the same time.

David Gwyn: So I'm curious about the process. So you sign with Abby Saul at the Lark Group, and then what happens right after? . 

Elle Grawl: So right after that she and I worked on edits. And she, I, I, I think other agents are a little different.

I think some are a little bit more helpful when it comes to edits, and then I think some really don't wanna take a lot of take on really in depth editorial work. But Abby is a very editorial agent. I think so. So we went through that. . And then she kind of came up with a list of publishing houses and editors that she thought would be a good fit for my book.

And then she started the submission process and then, and then we got connected with Liz Pearsons at Thomas and Merc. and then that's where it ended up finding a home. So yeah, that, that's so 

David Gwyn: exciting. And so has it [00:17:00] been the same process now with your second book, or is do you find it smoothed over at all or is it kind of the same thing?

Elle Grawl: No, thankfully, so , so The process just varies widely on, you know, who you are and like what, what your book, your second book looks like, I think. But thankfully I have the same editor. I didn't have to go out on submission. Oh, nice. Edited it straight to, to Liz and and she loved it and you know, and then, yeah.

So it's there. So but I imagine. You know, my next few books, I don't know, we'll see, we'll see if there share or, you know it could depend if, if they pass on it, then I would be out on submission again to, to everybody else. So, yeah. 

David Gwyn: Nice. And so is there something, well, like, and it sounds like you, like a lot of people, I, I imagine.

look too much at, at what the publishing world was like after Agenting and after , after having an agent, you're just like, ah, once I have an agent, I'll figure that out. [00:18:00] Yeah. Is there something about the publishing process that surprised you or, or something that you, that you had to do or some, some part of the process that you just thought.

Was not what you expected or, or, or didn't see coming? 

Elle Grawl: I mean, really all of it passed or even, so, yeah, once I researched, I was like, okay, first thing is get an agent, and then I didn't, I didn't even know submission was a thing. So I, I wasn't really prepared for that. And then once I, dug a little bit deeper into it.

 This isn't really surprising for anybody who's in the process, but how subjective everything is publishing because even at the agent stage I did have somebody else offer when I put them on notice about Abby. But a lot of the things that they wanted to change were were things that Abby loved, you know, kind of, and then, like I said, they, they thought I was intentionally trying to make my main character like a horrible person.

And I'm like, well, she's flawed, but I don't think , you know, I, I have a problem with you thinking, you know, she's, the worst [00:19:00] person ever, but that kind of thing. And then when it, when it gets to, editors and everything, it is just, it's really different how like the, the last interview I did, I was talking with people about pacing, you know, pacing in a book I think changes.

So it just really depends on the reader, you know? So, editors will look at it and say, this is too fast, or this is too slow. So it's, it's a lot of filtering feedback and then figuring out what actually works for your vision of the book, I guess. More than what I expected. . 

David Gwyn: So when you are writing now, are you thinking about pacing as you go? Are you, are you trying to keep that in mind as you're moving through the story? Or how, what do you do when you think about pacing as you're writing?

Elle Grawl: I, okay, so for the second book, I hadn't really, I kind of just put everything on paper. , like I said, this one. But then I just wrapped up developmental edits with the second one and I was like, okay, I think I'm starting to see a pattern with how my pacing needs to be tweaked. Next stage. [00:20:00] So, so I am kind of being a little bit more mindful about story beats and where they fall.

Even though I haven't outlined my current book, my third one, I'm just kind of keeping in the back of my mind you know, okay, maybe I need to ramp up the tension a little bit more around this point, or, you know, that kinda thing. So, yeah. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. That's cool. I think, it's, true when people say like, there's, there is no one way to write a book. It's just whatever way works for you. And, and so I, I think if, if people are listening, that's, that's something important to be thinking about.

So speaking of, actually it goes to my next question, which is the people who usually listen to my podcast are people who are. You know, maybe on their third manuscript they've kind of shelved the other two and they really feel like this is the one that, that is going to, you know, hopefully make or break their, their traditional publishing dreams.

And so if, if there was something that you think, they might take away from this conversation, what would you want that to be? 

Elle Grawl: I really think. . I mean, it's, it's so cliche and everybody always says this, but you know, don't [00:21:00] stop writing. Like, I think , I think I don't know, there's, once again, it's so subjective.

So I mean, just because a project maybe isn't working now doesn't mean that it won't ever be able to work. So if you can just push through to the next project. That's like a newer, fresher thing to get you excited about writing. I think as long as you can power through the next idea each time, don't give up on those other ones.

It's just, you know, it's not, not never, but it's just not right now. 

David Gwyn: I love that. And, and it's always important for people to hear that, I think. Yeah. I think that's great. So my last question for you is, where can people find you? Where can people look? . 

Elle Grawl: Oh, sure. So I am on Twitter and Instagram as just Elle Grawl, my full name.

And then my website. el.com. So it's all very straightforward. Nobody had the same last name, so it was not , it was not difficult to claim everything so

David Gwyn: That's awesome. Anyone who's listening, I will link to all that stuff [00:22:00] in the description so you can have easy access to Ellen and definitely check out one of those faces.

It, it's a great read. Something you're really gonna enjoy. I'm really glad you took the time to chat with me. I really appreciate it. This is a lot of fun. 

Elle Grawl: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. 

David Gwyn: Okay, so there you have it. If you're hoping to land an agent in 2023, then Elle just shared what you should expect from that relationship.

If you like that episode, be sure to subscribe. , next time on the podcast, I'm going to be compiling some ideas about writing stories that matter. I've been asking authors and agents questions about writing books. Are important and that matter to an audience. And in next week's episode, I'm going to share some insights on crafting books that convey important messages.

The week after that, I'll be sharing a really fun interview with Liz Alderman. We dig into the nuts and bolts of her new novel, the Perfect Neighborhood She Shares, how she develops character, backstory, how much to use and when to cut. Liz was so much fun to talk to, so be sure to subscribe so you get notified when that episode [00:23:00] lands.

Also, if you read her book before that interview drops, you're gonna get even more out of my conversation with her. In the meantime, make sure you either share on social media, leave a review of the podcast.

Or share with a writer who could benefit from hearing this message. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it, and I'll see you next week.